EP 031 Performance Drones with Chad Kapper

Join Mike as he speaks with Chad Kapper about high performance drones and his company HackMakeMod

Transcript:

Mike:
Welcome, everybody. I am so excited to be speaking to Chad Kapper. He has a really interesting background and I’m excited to learn about what he’s up to. He’s currently on a new mission here and we’ll talk about it, but there’s so much other stuff that he’s been into. I’m excited to have Chad on the show and I think we’re going to start to talk about high-performance drones. I don’t know about you, but I love high-performance drones so I’m excited to hear what Chad has got to talk about. Chad, how’s it going, man?

Chad:
Hey Mike. I’ve got a lot going on, but I’m happy to start with a subject I’m well-versed in.

Mike:
Yeah, that’s fantastic. I’m just checking out the stuff you’re into and I saw Rotor Riot, I think I’m saying that right, and that looks like a really cool website for people who are interested in high-performance drones and parts and just all types of stuff getting into that whole arena. I don’t have a ton of experience with drones other than having my friend over and flying it around at my house and it was really cool to see what he was up to. I don’t know if I’d call it a high-performance. And then I have flown some drones before, but usually, I’m just really nervous I’m going to crash them so I wouldn’t call myself a high-performance pilot. I’d call myself a really scared pilot when it comes to drones and stuff.
I saw that you were into something called, or working with something called, Red Cat Holdings, is that right? I don’t know. There’s a lot here to unpack, but I’m just curious about all these things.

Chad:
I’m happy to start wherever you like, but let’s maybe back up about a decade and I’ll kind of zip through it quickly because I think it will help understand the different pieces here. My longest professional history, if you want to back way up to the mid-90s, I got into video production and I built up a kind of a high-end boutique video production house that focused on results-driven creative content for large corporations. I mean, we had clients like the Timken Company, Goodyear, Lubrizol, and I did that for years and years and I just really got burned out. We got really good at doing what we did. We had 15 employees and we just did some really nice high-end work, but I don’t know, I just got tired of working with clients because you would do this really great video and it would make a difference for about a week, then everybody moved onto the next thing.
You just pour your creativity and efforts and blood, sweat, and tears into these really expensive high-end productions and then the next week you’d start on another one. Somewhere around 2009, I got into radio-control aircraft and drones. When I say drones, it was much, much more limited than it is now, but I was just enamored with… I wanted to put cameras in the air. And at that time about the only thing you could do is a helicopter. They did have radio-control, gas-powered helicopters that would take cameras up, but it was ridiculously expensive. I think it was like $10,000 a day.
I had a client, actually, the University of Akron, that wanted to do an aerial shot through the campus, and really the only two options were a real aircraft and a radio-control helicopter. It just was ridiculous. I mean like $10,000 for essentially one shot and it was probably like five seconds. We didn’t win the bid, didn’t end up doing it, but I do remember that was kind of a turning point for me. I was like, “Okay, the technology is getting there. We have to be able to put cameras in the air.” So that’s what peaked my interest and got me into the radio-control hobby, but then I just fell in love with scratch building and Warbirds and just all the different sub genres of radio-control flight.

Mike:
I’m sorry to bust you, but scratch building? I’m not sure what that is. Could you…

Chad:
Scratch building is building aircraft from raw materials, like foam board or balsa or whatever, but you’re just kind of making it up as you go along or you can get plans and do it, but a kit is prepared for you, where scratch building is more like, “Here’s some plans, find the stuff and make it.”

Mike:
Oh, wow. That’s awesome.

Chad:
I mean, it is amazing. I mean, scratch building is so awesome because you know when you crash an aircraft, it pretty much disintegrates. But the electronics, the motor, the servos, oftentimes, probably 80% of the time, they survive the crash but the air frame is destroyed. Well, when you scratch build, you’re using hot foam and glue and just like stuff is piece parted together and you crash, then you go cut a new piece of foam, splice it in, throw in some hot glue and you’re back up in the air. While they don’t typically end up looking good by the end of the week because they’ve been repaired 18 times, it is so fun because you’re not worrying so much about it and that’s the biggest hurdle, you just said it yourself. You’re like, “That’s really interesting, but I don’t want to crash.”
Let me get to my next bullet point here. So back in 2010, it was actually October, so 11 years ago next month, I started flight test. And flight test was the beginnings of my exploratory journey into all of this, radio-control aircraft, drones, scratch building, all of it. I ended up meeting up with Josh Bixler and flying at his field, well it was actually on his property, and man he was so helpful and friendly and knowledgeable. And I was like, “Oh my gosh.” And I remember asking him, I said, “Josh, can you do this on camera?” His response was something like, “I don’t know, but I’ll try.” So, I ended up pairing him up with another Josh, who’s my cousin, Josh Scott, who obviously I’ve known all his life, but he was very comfortable in front of the camera and I wanted this kind of like… He wasn’t into the hobby and I wanted this kind of a newbie, somebody fresh eyes, paired up with this experienced, knowledgeable, wise person.
The chemistry was there. It worked well. And for anybody that happens to watch the show, it’s obviously made history. I mean, we’re up to close to two million subscribers. I say we, I actually sold the company back in 2014, but I still absolutely love it and am part of the community, but my business ventures, I have a pretty much a four to six year run before I move on to the next thing. So that got me into all of that and then after flight tests, I started a company called a Rotor Riot, which was more focused. It was a niche of a niche of a niche on high-performance drones. And when I say high-performance drones, it’s kind of a weird statement. People don’t know what that means yet. Of course, there’s drone racing, which a lot of people become familiar with, but also there’s a thing called freestyle.
Freestyle is… the best analogy I’ve been able to come up with, you know how you watch skateboarding films where maybe there’s skateboarding in a pool or just down the street and they’re filming it, but they kind of make it up as they go along and you watch them do different tricks. It’s typically cut to music. It’s almost that exactly except through a drone’s perspective. So they go to interesting locations, it could be what they call a bando, an abandoned location, and then fly through it inside, out, all around it, but it’s like skateboarding through the air and it’s really quite mesmerizing. And some of these pilots have gotten so amazingly good that it just blows your mind. So if you haven’t checked it out, check out Rotor Riot and you could see some of this footage that I’m talking about.

Mike:
That is so cool. I love the term bando. That’s great. Are they doing like first-person view type stuff where they’re wearing goggles?

Chad:
Yeah, and that’s funny too because a lot of people don’t realize this, but the pilots are flying through goggles. So there’s a camera on the front of the drone, the camera is locked in the position on the drone, it doesn’t move. The DJI Phantoms and Mavics and Air and all of those are meant more for cinematography. These high-performance drones are meant for agility and speed and oftentimes that’s what gets used when they want like extreme action shots because these drones can keep up with anything.

Mike:
That’s just crazy. When you were talking about 2009, okay well we could fly a plane through and take the shot, and it’s so crazy to think how much progress has been made in a decade because it’s hard to imagine a time when drones weren’t carrying around cameras for me. I remember as a kid watching a gas-powered helicopter in a movie with a camera and some kid was operating it. They had made it. This was like back in the 90s. I can’t remember what the show was. And I thought to myself, “That’s the coolest thing ever. Imagine being able to fly a camera around.” They were able to like save the day or something with it, get out of trouble. And I just thought, “Man, that’d be so cool.” And now it’s like if a drone didn’t have a camera, people would be like, “What are you doing with that thing?”

Chad:
Well, and it’s so funny to me now that it’s just so commonplace. I mean, if you pulled out a quadcopter 10 years ago people are going to be like, “What is that?” Like an alien craft. And you pulled out a drone 10 years ago, it looked like this alien craft and people didn’t really understand what it did. Well, I think even now people are still trying to wrap their heads around the purposes of drones because there’ve been so many creative, what do I want to say, developments around drones and what they can do.

Mike:
Yeah, and I really think it’s still pretty early. I mean, we’ve got this awesome technology that’s only going to have so many more applications that we just haven’t quite thought of. I heard a really interesting analogy that I think can work for a lot of interesting areas. It happens to be for AI stuff and deep learning. And one of the guys who’s really into it, I’m trying to remember the gentleman’s name, but he said this deep learning technology is kind of like, you kind of think of it like electricity, and when we first kind of like started to master electricity, it was a matter of like, “Okay, now we have this amazing tool and now we are going to begin to electrify things.” More and more things will get electrified. And he was making the analogy like deep learning, it’s like a technology that now we’re understanding it more, learning to master it, and we will begin to integrate it into just every feature of our lives.
I feel like this drone technology, you could kind of think of it in a similar way. It’s like we’ve got this new, amazing platform and ability and what are going to be the interesting ways it gets integrated into the world? It’s going to be fantastic.

Chad:
Oh, definitely.

Mike:
I don’t know. I love when people come over to my house and just drone around. I think that’s fun, but the utility of it just blows me away.

Chad:
Oh yeah. Well, like you said though, I mean with swarm technology, that’s one thing I’ve been kind of fascinated with and you’ve seen, I’m sure, the light shows at the Olympics and all of that, but there’s a lot that’s going to come from that. Once you get away from one pilot and one drone to one pilot and a thousand drones, and it’s mostly autonomous. Imagine a conductor in an orchestra. Its different than a solo musician. So once we get there, I mean, I guess we’re there, but as you see the creativity flourish and you see more and more developments, it’s just going to be astounding.

Mike:
Yeah, I really think so. Yeah, I love watching many drones work at a time. I’ve seen some examples of what I believe they were autonomous, they might’ve been, I felt like they were a little bit more pre-programmed, but they were operating in unison. It was really impressive. They were like picking up these small blocks and stacking a wall. It was like a toy example, but it was just amazing to see them not running into each other, operating in a small space and managing quite well. So yeah, that’s fascinating.
I don’t know, getting a little more into the weeds on these drones, I imagine these high-performance drones, what kind of electronics is in them? They’ve got like flight controllers and that kind of thing?

Chad:
Yeah, so here’s what’s interesting and I’ll defend this and argue with people if they say differently, but the high-performance drone space, I believe, has some of the world’s best, most agile hardware/software combos. I have yet to see a commercial drone or a consumer drone perform at the capacity the way that these drones can. And I’ve said this for years, I think some of the best innovation in the world comes from hobbies because hobbies aren’t as regulated and everything is forced to be so inexpensive because hobbyists are poor. Not all of them, but in the grand scheme of things, hobbyists do a hobby because it’s not their profession, so they don’t typically have the kind funding that you would for your business or whatever. So what happens is, and when stuff gets to be cheap, you can reiterate on it very quickly and rapidly because it might cost $10 rather than $100, so you’re saving all this money in your iterations.
And that’s one of the things that got me excited about scratch building back years ago was you could just go fly, crash, try something new and in a day’s time you might try three different air foils, where imagine having to buy a balsa kit, assemble the whole thing, crash it, do it again. Those development cycles were months apart, where that’s been shortened to a day. And so in the high-performance drone world, crashing is part of it. I mean, guys have four and five drones that they go out with and when they’re all broken, they go home. That’s just how it works. And you know, they fly aggressively, they push one another, and I can tell you I never would have imagined in 2010 that drones would fly the way they do today.
I mean, it really truly is astounding. I mean, I believe that it’s so far along and so far out there that when most people watch a freestyle video, their minds don’t even really comprehend what’s going on because we’re so blasted with Hollywood affects that we don’t really discern what’s actually happening technologically. So, you have these drones that are moving in ways that, like CG cameras, like 3D cameras or something, so people don’t really discern the difference and they’re just like, “Oh, that’s interesting,” or whatever, but they’re not really comprehending it quite yet. Then when they do, you see this light come on and they’re like, “Whoa, wait, that’s a drone actually flying through the air?”
I don’t know, people just think, because you can make anything anymore, they just think like you’re just making it up in the computer or something. So when you really get to witness this in person, stand next to somebody flying and then put the goggles on, it is really truly mesmerizing and mind blowing.

Mike:
Oh, that’s fantastic. Yeah, I have never done like a… what is it, FVP?

Chad:
First-person view.

Mike:
Okay, yeah. I’ve never tried that before. I’m dying to though. I’d love to give it a shot, but yeah, I could imagine that must be nuts. Just thinking about these drones flying around and doing this stuff, let’s say somebody is out there and they’re interested in getting into this high-performance drone world, are these super expensive vehicles? I imagine it can get pretty darn pricey, but I’m curious what does somebody getting into it look like? Have they messed around with commercial stuff already?

Chad:
So, that’s a good question. Of course, I’m going to direct you to rotorriot.com.

Mike:
Absolutely.

Chad:
Keep in mind though, even though we have levels of beginners, it’s like if you were to get into beginner cart racing or something with cars. It’s pretty substantial. I suppose you might start with a go-kart, go to a go-kart track on the weekend and have some fun and that might get your interest peaked. It’s like that, but it’s not like a consumer drone. It does not have autonomous features. You are flying it. Whichever way you point it is where it goes. So if you push the stick right, you’re going right. And if you just keep going right and down, eventually you hit the ground. It doesn’t have any protection features or anything like that. So, much like a skateboard, you might jump up on it and fall to the ground and break your arm, so it’s very similar.
I just always like to give that warning. However, there’s a lot of steps in between, like we have Cinewhoop, which is a lesser, I don’t want to say a lesser version, it’s just really different, but it has like covered ducts so your propellers aren’t exposed. So that makes it a little safer, a little more durable.

Mike:
Is that like training wheels sort of kind of?

Chad:
It kind of is, but it’s also intended for indoor use and things like that.

Mike:
Oh, okay. Safety protocol kind of thing, all right.

Chad:
It’s mostly safety, but it does actually impact the performance as well. But you did ask me the cost and I would say probably, if you don’t have anything and you need a controller and goggles and everything, you’re going to be over $500 and that’s on the low end. And then I would say a typical package is going to be $1200 to $1500 for everything.

Mike:
Wow. That’s a lot less than I was expecting, man. That’s pretty cool.

Chad:
Like I said though, guys have three, four, five of these, and each one is probably $300 to $500 just for the drone. So it does get expensive in volume, but if it was… You might be thinking more on the consumer side where you go to best buy and you buy a Phantom for I don’t know $1,200, whatever it was when the Phantom came out, and you just look at that as that’s my one drone and you don’t ever want to crash it. This is a completely different thing. This is crash it.

Mike:
A whole different mindset, got you.

Chad:
Upgrade it and improve it when you’re fixing it. That’s what a lot of people do is they buy maybe some base model stuff, and then they go crash it and it becomes an excuse to upgrade it.

Mike:
Right. So are they pretty modular then?

Chad:
Extremely modular, and that’s one of the reasons I fell in love with this zone was because I love modularity and I like that everything’s swappable. They all use the same size motor for the most part. Back in 2016, I would say, was the beginning of the real refinement on sizing. So like five-inch drones, and when I say five-inch, that’s the diameter of the propeller, became the standard, because there was seven-inch, there was six-inch, four-inch, there still is all these sizes, but they’ve kind of settled into different purposes.
Your run of the mill, pretty standard racing and freestyle drones are going to be five-inch. When you get up into like a six and seven-inch, typically those are long range. They’re a little more efficient, so they might not be as agile, but you’re going to get more battery life. You start going down into the four, three, two-inch propellor sizes, these are more beginner-oriented, less mass, cheaper to repair kind of stuff.

Mike:
Wow. Now, for the computers on these for the flight controllers, they’re all… I’ve heard of like ArduPilot. I don’t know if you’ve heard of ArduPilot before, and that’s an old school one. I mean, I remember that from a long time ago, but these are mostly like proprietary type stuff that companies are developing?

Chad:
I would say kind of the standard software that’s come along has been Betaflight. Now there’s other software. There’s like FlightOne and some other software packages. Cleanflight I think is still out and around. But Betaflight is like 80% of the market and the hardware is like an F4 processor and it’s pretty straightforward at this point. There’s gobs and gobs of companies that make the hardware, but they almost all expect that you’re going to use Betaflight on it and that has pretty much become the standard software.

Mike:
And is Betaflight, is that a software company then that’s putting this out or is it an open source project?

Chad:
Yeah, Betaflight, I should know this, but I’m not sure if they’re still open source. It started on… It was like a fork of I think Cleanflight. I really should know my history better than this, but yeah, I’m pretty sure Betaflight is still open source. And my apologies, I’ll loop back around to Red Cat, I sold the company about a year and a half ago and I’ve been completely… I don’t want to say completely out of the mix, but I haven’t flown in over a year and I’ll transition as to why here soon, but I want to answer your question about the hardware.
And just to give you an idea, like the flight controllers are typically going to be in the $40 to $50 range, and then you have your speed controllers, which controls all the motors, and those are going to be another $50 to $60, so that’s the heart of the drone. And then of course you have your FPV gear, the transmission for video, and then you have your radio signal that goes into the flight controller, so you have some kind of receiver radio, but the radios can be $20, the receiver, not the controller. The controllers are much more expensive.

Mike:
Right. Yeah, I’ve seen some really amazing controllers.

Chad:
I mean, there’s all kinds of hardware. I’m giving you kind of like the typical and the most common. Of course, they went up to F7 processors, but a lot of people argue if it’s even relevant to have an F7 processor on it, because you’re not even completely maximizing all the power of the F4.

Mike:
Yeah. That’s just fascinating. So it does not seem like it’s… Is it a technology limit at this point then? Is that kind of what you’re saying? The processes we have are fast enough so that I can move the control and my aircraft is going to move just like that?

Chad:
Yeah, as far as control, I mean, there hasn’t been a problem in years. I would say the bottleneck now is it seems like what everybody is working on are two things, one is the visual display, possibly augmented reality eventually and then even just real time updates and making the on-screen display look nicer. And then you have, I would say filters is probably a big one because you have all these different filters for when you’re moving around. If you’ve got a motor that’s out of balance, is it introducing new noise and can you automatically filter it out so it can fly without being impacted by that noise. So that’s where a lot of the processing power goes, not in the actual control of the drone. It’s more like filters and OSD and added functionality.

Mike:
Oh, wow. All right.

Chad:
Much like computers. Every time you got an advancement in processors or memory or whatever, they find a way to max it out with creature comforts.

Mike:
Wow. That is really cool. Yeah. It makes me want to go get a drone right now and just go fly it around. I’ve got to get an FTV. That sounds so much fun. So, if you’re cool with it, let’s transition to what you’re working on now, what you’re getting into. #mod, right?

Chad:
Yep. So, you asked me about Red Cat and the reason Red Cat came into the mix is I sold Rotor Riot to Red Cat last January, so January 2020, and I joined the company. So now I’m an employee with Red Cat and I’m the brand manager. And I’m making content and supervising the handling of the brand, but on the side, I shouldn’t say… Yeah, I guess on the side, but I’ve been working on Hack Make Mod just like in the background since 2016 I think is when I registered the name. It was this project that I’ve always wanted to do and during the pandemic it opened up a lot of free time, so I was able to put a lot of effort into it.
And Hack Make Mod, if you’re familiar with Flight Test, if you’re not, you can check it out, it’s a very similar model. We’ve got kind of this newcomer that’s looking at everything with fresh eyes and then I’m going to pair him up initially with me to do these fun projects and then, as we evolve, we’re going to bring in additional and new people that are just really smart. Hope to have you on the show soon.

Mike:
I don’t know if I meet that minimum barrier you got there, but I appreciate it.

Chad:
Your stuff is awesome. I mean, it’s just fun to watch. I learn something every time and you’ve just got this way of speaking and your voice is just like, it draws you in and every episode you watch, you learn something. So yeah, just for that alone I think it’d be great to have you collaborate with us on something. But Hack Make Mod’s purpose is to… I mean, typically, right now, because I was so interested in learning Arduino, 3D printing, programming, electronics, all of this, one thing that has always frustrated me is one, when you find a project that’s really cool, they typically give you one narrow path for that project.
And what I mean is you got to use this very specific component, you have to do it this very specific way, you have to use this very specific code. And if any of that stuff gets out of alignment, you’re screwed. You don’t have a good time. Even Element 14, they do an awesome job. I love what they do. There was a project about, when was it, a couple of weeks ago, and the project was only three months old and I was like, “Oh, that’s pretty cool. I think I’m going to do that one.” And I click on the link and it doesn’t go anywhere. So I’m like, “Okay, they’re coupled with Newark. I’ll just go search the site.” Nope, they didn’t have the product on the site. Couldn’t find it anywhere. It just was broken and the product didn’t exist.
And I’m like, “Seriously?” And you know, in software world, which I’m sure you’ll be familiar with this, you want to do this project and you download it and you got all the code and you’re trying really hard to understand it and you hit go to compile and the library is out of date and doesn’t exist anywhere anymore and now you can’t do it because the library doesn’t exist or has no support or it’s outdated or whatever. Oh my gosh, this stuff just infuriates me because it’ll be like this really cool… So then you look for other versions of the project and the one that you’re doing is the one you’re doing because it’s the one at the top of the page and it’s at the top of the page because most people did it, but now it’s broken and you can’t do it.
And it’s just going to sit there and nobody else is going to do it because they’re like, “Oh, that project’s already done.” So what I want to do is I want to identify and create and develop these really cool projects, but I want to make sure there’s always multiple paths to completion. So I want to always have options and I want to put my neck on the line. So if we put a project out there, it’s going to be a guarantee that you’ll be able to get through it. Now I also want to put a little disclaimer, it’s not the only thing we’re going to do. I mean, project-based learning is very important, but we’re also going to have some fun and do some challenges.
For instance, we got that arcade game Lights Out, and it’s like this arcade game with 30 buttons that light up randomly and you got to hit them all as soon as they light up and then you try to beat the score. We want to do a challenge where we build that arcade game for under $1000, or something like that, we might do $500, try to do it as cheap as possible, but it’s still ambitious enough that we don’t expect people are going to build this at home and if they do have that kind of capability, they’ll probably, I don’t know, you know what maybe they’ll glean something from what we do, but we’ll always make the code available and the plans and the diagrams. The idea is to inspire people to learn through project-based learning.

Mike:
That is really cool. Is it launched now or are you getting ready to launch?

Chad:
No, as of today it was September 20th. My intent is to launch in October, probably the first week in October. I don’t know when this is coming out, but we’ve got a lot of stuff in the can. We’re working on episodes as we speak. But the other piece of this I guess I want to share is that everything I’ve done in the past, it’s always organic. So, we throw at the wall what we think is interesting, what we think people will get inspired by, but then we also respond to the comments and what they like to see and what they like to learn from. One of the things that I get most excited about is helping facilitate ideas. I’m not a really good idea person. I don’t come up with ideas, but I make ideas better and I make ideas thrive. And that’s what I’ve always been good at and that’s what I love doing.
So what I look forward to the most is just throwing some episodes out there and then people are going to comment. They’re going to be like, “Don’t do that. You should do this.” And if I see like four or five comments going in a certain direction, I’m going to go with it. I’ll be like, “Okay, we’ll do that.” Because I think that is so fun to take these ideas then execute them and then present them in a way where anybody can make them. But I want to make sure, my promise to our viewers or customers or whatever you want to call it, is that I will make sure that if we put a project out there, you’re going to have a path to completion. If something gets outdated, you email me, call me, whatever. I will make sure that you will find a way to complete that project because that’s the problem I’m solving.

Mike:
Nice. Yeah, that’s definitely a real problem. Definitely.

Chad:
You can probably hear it in my voice. I’m extremely frustrated by it because there are so many creative, intelligent people out there, but what drives them is proving the concept. And once they prove it, they move on, and you know what, there’s nothing wrong with that. That’s fine. They can do that. But there needs to be more people that take that and then say, “Hey, let’s make it so everybody can do it.” Because the engineers and the brilliant people that come up with these ideas, they’re not excited about customer support. They’re not excited about sourcing new products that will meet the same specs. Those aren’t things that people are excited about, but I am.

Mike:
It takes all kinds to make it work.

Chad:
It does.

Mike:
Cool.

Chad:
But ultimately, I love making entertainment, but I like to make entertainment that has a purpose. Of course I want to make people laugh and that’s a good thing, but if you can make them laugh and be inspired and they come away learning something and they’ve furthered their knowledge, that’s amazing.

Mike:
That is exciting. So where can people find Heck Make Mod? Where will it be when this goes live? Chances are the majority of people listening to this will be in the future, so where will they go?

Chad:
Well, it’s primarily going to be a YouTube show. We are going to start out with YouTube, probably TikTok and Instagram, all the visual social media sources. And then of course we have hackmakemod.com and if you go there now, even today, we have a newsletter sign up. So if we haven’t launched by the time you see this, you can at least sign up for the newsletter and make sure we’ll keep you updated on our developments.

Mike:
All right, this is awesome. Is there anything else you’d like to leave the audience with? I think this is a good place to finish up.

Chad:
No, I think… Oh boy, I have lots thoughts, but most of all I’m just really excited to enter kind of a new community, the maker community. Although I’ve been there alongside of it with drones, it’s really cool to like delve into it and just start experimenting and learning so much. My mind has like tripled in capacity over the pandemic here because I’ve just been diving into all of this and a lot of it special thanks to you, Mike, because your content is phenomenal.

Mike:
Thanks. I really appreciate that, Chad. Well hey, this has been fantastic. Thank you for being so generous with your time. I appreciate it.

Chad:
Of course, thank you.

Mike:
Cool.