EP 025 eTextiles with Topher Anderson
eTextiles Transcript:
Michael:
All right. Welcome, everybody. Today I get to speak with Topher Anderson. Topher how’s it going?
Topher:
Going well, going well. How are you?
Michael:
I’m doing really good. Thanks. Topher works in the etextile industry. And if you’re like me, you’ve probably seen really interesting e-textile applications out there, but you wonder about the things like, “Hmm. Could I wash that? Would that actually work?” Or, “Where could we push etextiles to?” There’s so many different sci-fi scenarios where etextiles are just kind of a part of everything. And that, to me, it’s a bit fascinating. So these are some of the questions I kind of want to explore with you a little bit, cause I know you work with these high-tech companies and you’re doing some really neat stuff in this area. And so I just want to ask you, tell me everything about etextiles.
Topher:
That’s a great one. Yeah. I think in my perspective, etextiles or smart textiles, depending on what terminology you’re using, are kind of the future of how we look at getting data in and out of devices or how we start to interact with surfaces. There are e-textiles that are input textiles that have things like a passive touch built into them, or touch sensors or temperature sensors. And then we have etextiles or smart textiles that are closed loop systems that take some kind of input and create some kind of output out of them. We have e-textiles with the antennas and types of inductive coupling inside of them. We have etextiles that can change color or can start to move different things around in a fabric with memory wires. So I think there’s a wide, wide range to be able to go inside of that. But a lot of them have to do with using electricity, either as an actuator or using electricity, to be able to take data readings out of that textile, whether that’s a wearable or a shirt, or maybe it’s some upholstery. Could be anything.
Michael:
That is fascinating. I like the fact that, so you’ve already kind of taken me out of where my brain was even going with surfaces. You know what I mean? Because you’re right. I mean, textiles in general, aren’t just, I guess I generally think of textiles as things I wear, but that’s really not the case at all. There’s so many different surfaces and so many surfaces are covered in etextile. I mean, I think of like a couch, for example, it’s covered in whatever. So, and the other thing that I … I really kind of liked that term smart textile that you just put an E in front of anything that has electricity on it, but it’s the smart part that kind of makes it cool.
Topher:
Closed loop. Yep. Exactly.
Michael:
Closed loop. All right. So one thing that I’ve always been curious about with e-textiles is the whole powering part. I mean, I’ve got so many questions here. I’m trying to get my train of thought here. So I apologize if this all comes out-
Topher:
It’s all right.
Michael:
… in just like a bramble, but … so let’s say you’re working on some new project or you’re like, “Hey, here’s this cool etextile application.” How are you integrating the powering part into that? How does that-
Topher:
That is great.
Michael:
Obviously it’s an important part, but I’m just curious how that plays out.
Topher:
Yeah. So I think it goes … right now, the question is what level of development we’re in. So if we want something, a smart textile or e-textile that’s on the shelf relatively quickly, and we want to be able to power that up. We use things like traditional lithium ion batteries, small battery packs, the USB battery packs seem to be pretty, pretty ubiquitous right now inside of this. Although if you look a little more futuristic, there’s a lot of push to try to put the batteries into the fibers themselves, or have fibers that can have a large capacitance. Cause again, fiber has a great surface area and a big surface area means we have a really big capacitor there. And so from that perspective, looking at how we can actually store the power inside of the textile structure itself, whether that’s something that’s embroidered or knitted down or woven, that’s where the future is going towards it.
Someday we’ll be able to see probably clothes or shirts that as you walk, the static that you start building up, starts charging the devices inside of them so that you can start getting your readings out and it’d be self power in that case. In that case, we wouldn’t even need the battery. It would just be a charge storage device.
Michael:
That is really cool.
Topher:
Yeah. For now, it’s more into more traditional batteries, smaller batteries. There’s some companies doing flexible batteries right now, thin flexible pieces that you can embed pretty nicely, which is another nice and lightweight way of getting power in.
Michael:
Wow. Now when you’re talking about the fibers, I’m a complete novice when it comes to textiles. I think of yarn or something like that, but can the fibers themselves be part of the decision of which fibers to use? Is that actually kind of part of the smart textile itself? Like can that be integrated into the design itself?
Topher:
Absolutely. We can go with things like conductive threads. They could be silver coated threads, or they could be stainless steel embedded threads or other materials that have different conductive properties, and that’s one way that we can start to work with conductivity through a very large area. If you think of a wall and I want to turn the wall into a giant circuit board, well, if I’m going to make that with traditional processing steps for PCBs, that’s going to be a really big and really expensive circuit board. From a textile perspective, suddenly we can step back from that and we can put threads down exactly in the traces and routes that we want. And now making an entire wall, a circuit board becomes something that’s cost effective, and it’s also relatively easy to do without a lot of processing steps. The threads are the piece though, that we start to put those electronics in, or use to be able to connect electronics.
There’s companies right now doing research in putting electronics … and I have a good friend of mine and coworker from Microsoft, who puts electronics into different threads. So you can get temperature sensors in a thread itself or LEDs in the thread itself. And then there’s other ways of doing it too, looking at the macro material. So using the textile itself and the geometry to start creating stretch, like a knit can detect stretch sensors. And that uses the textile as a macro structure to be able to create some interesting feedback loops.
Michael:
Wow. So you’ve just got like this whole toolbox of different things you can go … so it’s like the applications are limitless here. You’re like, “Okay, what do you want to do? Let’s think about this.” And it’s like, you can just start drawing on all these different … Now how much of what you’re doing is research verse implementation of existing technologies. It appeared to me as though you were also doing some type of research and stuff. So I’m just curious about that.
Topher:
Yeah, no, that’s great. So my specific research area has kind of shifted a little bit more into methods to efficiently manufacture smart textiles. One of the things I’ve noticed for years is there’s a lot of one-offs. Really good self-soldered or put together parts that they function great, but you can’t get them manufactured because if you go to somebody and say, “Hey, I want this sock with 62 leads, hand soldered,” nobody’s going to take that kind of work.
And so what I start to look at, and one of the reasons I got involved with ZSK is to be able to look at methods to scale electronics and smart textiles, manufacturing in scale, and very quickly. So ZSK makes embroidery machines. That’s one of the things I use to be able to create it. It’s like additive, textile manufacturing. And embroidery allows you to really put the materials exactly in the patterns that you want, just like you would route a normal circuit board.
And to me, that’s where you start getting some really interesting plays to be able to create these flexible shapes and these flexible electronics. So from my research, I look at methods to be able to scale these. How can I make a curtain that is touch sensitive and can close and open, that allow different types of heating? How can I make that and actually manufacture it? So it’s not just a one-off, but it’s something that you can go out on the shelves and buy. And so my research in there is more in, “How do we pull a concept from an initial concept into something a little bit further, so we can start to see it on the shelves?”
Michael:
Right. Wow. That is really cool. That is fascinating. So with these, e-textiles the integrated circuits that you’re using to make them smart or that’s part of, at least that smart loop. Are they developing integrated circuits specifically for e-textile applications? Or are you finding that you’re kind of like borrowing ones and finding which one’s kind of work right? Or, well enough?
Topher:
Yeah. No, that’s a great question. I think … so this field is so quickly emerging right now. It’s been out for about 10, 15 years. There’s been a lot of talk about e-textiles, but really, I think in the past three to five years is when I’ve seen shifts across the board of people trying to do this in scale and actually getting things out there. I think from that perspective, it’s hard to say. It’s actually hard to say. I think there’s a bit of both in there.
Michael:
Okay. So I’m trying to think of like, I guess usually when I’m thinking of e-textiles and say clothing or something, generally I’m thinking of something that is along the line of fashion. You know what I’m saying? The e-textile is enhancing the fashion in some shape or form, but that doesn’t have to be the case whatsoever. Right? Is it more common? Are there any e-textile applications in, I don’t know … that are being used more in military or fighter fighter type situations where that’s kind of becoming a thing?
Topher:
I mean, there’s a lot of different look on how to be able to take data off of people who are injured. Those are all in, I would still call that the garment realm kind of. Where you’re either looking at fashion or you’re looking at wearables. And then there’s this whole other subset of e-textiles that I think are even more easy to kind of both to kind of see and both to represent. Smart carpets is something that can track different motion over a carpet. Carpet’s a textile, it’s not something we think of, but a lot of cool data out of a carpet, people moving on it, how much sunlight hitting it, temperature out of the carpet. So even things like that.
Ribbons, like how do you attach a ribbon? So if you put a ribbon around a box, what if that ribbon can detect when you open it? And maybe that’s a way of creating security to make sure nobody’s tampering with something, or maybe that ribbon has RFID inside of it so that you can scan the ribbon itself, and that way it knows what’s in that box without even opening it.
There’s all of these really weird little smart textiles that go even in the place of just wearable. I think wearables is the one that gets the most amount of press, especially in visual sense, ’cause it works with fashion. You’re getting lighting, you’re getting motion, but some of these other little nichey ones are really, really cool because they solve very specific problems and they sell them really, really well because easy to manufacturer and it’s lightweight and it can move in different ways that a traditional circuit board can’t.
Michael:
Wow. That’s fascinating. Yeah. I’m thinking about a ribbon that gives some data. That’s just, that’s far out. That’s kind of crazy. I’m worried about the carpet though. My carpet would be like, “Please vacuum me already.”
Topher:
Yeah. Self cleaning, cupboards. That’s the next one. There we go there in an idea.
Michael:
This is really cool. So how did you end up getting into e-textiles?
Topher:
Yeah. For actually in undergrad, I went to Philadelphia University, which had a really good textile program. And I worked under a professor, Dr. Christopher Pastore, who did a lot of cool textile work. We did braided stents one summer in his lab, where you take a wire piece that has memory wire inside of it, and you crumple it down into something, the size of a pill. And then when you add a little electricity that creates resistance, which creates some heat and that puffs up and that puff allows you to kind of close off in aneurism, or reinforce an area in the brain that you couldn’t get into without it being so tight.
Once I started seeing projects like that, I started seeing that textiles was a really nice way to implement electronics. And so in grad school, I did a lot of work over with Phillips over in Germany, looking at different types of electromagnetic shields made out of textiles and ways to cloak things out of textiles and how different radiation interfaces with textiles. And once you start loading down that path, there’s more and more that you start seeing from circuit boards stitching and putting circuits in the things to creating robotics and flexible robotics, textile, robotics, and all of that I think comes back into that e-textiles or smart textile domain.
Michael:
Wow. That’s fascinating. Once you said, cloak, you lost me.
Topher:
It’s the future.
Michael:
I was like, “Oh man. Cloaking.” This is cool.
Topher:
Imagine the future of smart textile is, imagine Harry Potter’s cloak. Like as an actual thing where you put this thing on and you can suddenly you’re invisible. I mean, right now that’s a sci-fi, but the future of smart textiles will get there eventually someday. And that’ll be a very good a day for smart textiles.
Michael:
Yeah, absolutely. I love the idea that it could so that the technologies could be so seamlessly integrated into the fabric of our lives, pun intended. You know?
Topher:
It’s great.
Michael:
Where it’s like we’re just so used to seeing squares and little metal things or plastic things or this or that it’s going to have the microcontroller in it. But what about something you throw over your shoulder or the towel at the beach or-Absolutely.
eTextiles:
Michael:
… the chair you’re sitting in at the beach or whatever. All of that could be … It’s interesting because it’s like sometimes, applications that collect data often, I wonder like, “Okay, well what’s going to be done with this data? How could it be used effectively?”
Topher:
Sure.
Michael:
But there’s all types of interesting data you could get back from, if you could have data in a product and then understand the wear of that product over time, even, maybe even how it’s being used or the conditions under which it’s being used and that could then help generate better designs for the future products.
Topher:
That’s exactly it. Exactly. And I mean, it also opens functionality too. I mean, think right now there’s this huge craze towards autonomous cars and we know it’s coming, but if there’s autonomous cars, are there still going to be buttons in cars? Is there going to be a steering wheel in cars? Or is there better ways to do it? Can you interact with the fabric of a car and you just bring your hands over, and it knows that this means volume control because it detects you came in the car and now you just touch fabrics in different places? And that could be a different tactile feedback. That could be something also that maybe has some advantage for different groups that need to use that piece. So different disability advantages. So there could be some ways of interacting there and in bettering people’s lives with these smart textiles in a way that we couldn’t do before.
Michael:
Right. I know we’re so chained to our keyboard. It’s like our brain can’t see beyond it. I mean, how long have we been using a keyboard for decades and decades? You know, it’s like, we just … I don’t know. It’s going to die with it. We’re going to keyboards in our coffins. Like how many, how long will this go on? Because you know? It’s really interesting, interesting ideas.
Topher:
Yeah.
Michael:
Can you, again, this is my ignorance just shining here, but when we say the word textile, and I know we’ve kind of talked about this already, like a textile, is it literally just a fabric? Is that what textile means? Or does it mean something different? Is there like a general term or something like that?
Topher:
Yeah. No, that’s a really good question. So fabrics and textiles are very, very similar. There’s a couple of subtle differences. Let’s just say I’m making a braided tube. A braided tube I would consider much more of a textile structure. It still has the motions in plays of a textile. It still moves in different ways, but it’s not really in my mind a fabric. Fabrics are more linear pieces that lie out. I think that there’s kind of a fusion inside of there, and again, very subtle differences. I think in the textile community, if you mentioned fabric are textiles, people would go with it.
But I think there’s some interesting structures that you get. So textile to me is a bigger picture piece. The textile could be a fabric, but it could also be all of these other little things that have assemblies in it. So I think that kind of, at least in my mind distinguishes between the two.
Michael:
Okay. All right. Yeah. That makes sense. That kind of opens it up for my brain a little bit to thinking about like a woven yeah. Like a woven pipe or something like that. Okay.
Topher:
Yeah, like a shoelace. A shoelace is a great example. That would definitely be a textile, but I wouldn’t call that a fabric, personally.
Michael:
Yeah. Right. Absolutely. Oh man. Shoelaces that could teach my kid how to tie his shoes.
Topher:
Self tying shoelaces. There’s a good one.
Michael:
Yeah. At soccer games. That’d be funny. So can you give us an example of a project you’re working on now that you think is pretty cool?
Topher:
Yeah. We’re looking right now, actually at different ways of scaling different ways to stitch circuit boards down. One of the interesting ways, and this just came out very, very recently that we’re looking at, but if you’re looking at trying to make really large flexible structures, textile, let’s just go textile, ’cause that’s one. It’s going to be in plastics. This could be in something like saran wrap, too. But if I’m trying to make a large wrappable structure, I need to usually interface that somehow with traditional electronics. So there’s ways that we can mount chips into fabrics and other things, but in general, end all be all. If I want a microprocessor in there and I want the supporting electronics, I’m going to put that on a small board and somehow include that board so that I can bring my sensors and everything further away from that.
I think that one of the interesting parts I’m looking at now is how do we scale that really fast and really automated? So instead of using solder points to solder things down, which takes too much time, let’s use stitching. Let’s use embroidery equipment to be able to stitch conducted thread into the circuit board in each one of those slots, and that way I don’t have to touch anything. I can have a thousand different points down there and that embroidery machine is going to put all of the connections in for me. And I’m not going to have to worry about soldering. I’m not going to have to worry about joints. I’m not going to have to worry about fatigue. And that lets me become more automated in my process.
I think once we look at that from an automation side, that’s where doors open for all of the creators to come out and say, “I want 1000 temperature sensors in a robe so I can see like a snake through the robe.” Or “I want 400 different light sensors. So I can put a blanket out over top of my garden and see where all the light is being collected.”
And I think to be able to grow those out, the key piece that’s missing is that interface between the textile and the rigid board. And I think that’s the piece, that’s the primary focus of my research now is how do we make that fully automatic with different ways of putting it down robotically or robotic arms onto the machine are all kinds of different ways, but that’s a cool one.
Michael:
Like an embroidery pick and place, almost.
Topher:
That’s exactly what we’re at. That’s exact.
Michael:
Wow.
Topher:
So there’s another fun one that we’ve been working on too, which is … if you think of like textiles, you think of let’s think of like a ballerina dress with the little sequence on it. You know, little shiny things that shine back and forth, little plastic pieces? So to me, a sequin is a single-sided circuit board. It’s a polyamide board. And so if I can put thousands or hundreds of thousands of sequence down on a piece of textile with complete accuracy to be able to wire them up and everything, then why can’t I put components on that? And if I go a step further, then why can’t I put many components? So I can really turn the textile machine into a pick and place exactly like you would use where I could put two resistors on this one. I put a microprocessor over here and I put a temperature sensor here and the embroidery machine, or the stitching machine puts conductive thread to connect all of those up. And therefore you have a flexible board, but all of the parts, 100% were put down by the embroidery machine.
And I think that’s another way that we can start to grow these things out to really interesting black shapes because it’s starting to fuse that electronics discipline with the embroidery. And both of them have their advantages and disadvantages with speed, with accuracy, with throughput. And I think the two are a natural fit. Eventually they go together. So sequins is another one I think is pretty cool right now as well.
Michael:
That is really cool. Yeah. Just thinking about that’s amazing. I don’t have much experience with embroidery machines, especially like large scale embroidery machines that would be used. But I’m picturing, you’re not allowed to laugh at me, but I’m picturing like a big sewing machine. Right? Is that kind of what they’re like?
Topher:
That’s exactly. It’s like a big sewing machine that has a frame that moves around on a table. So that way you can computer control where that frame moves, just like you’d use a 3D printer, actually. You can control where the thread gets stitched. And with that, you can start to put more materials in. You could put wires in. We’ve done projects putting a cat five cable into different textiles. You name it, you can put it down with embroidery as a way to assemble this altogether in scale.
Michael:
Wow. That’s really neat. You know, just things as simple as let’s say you have to hang some electronics on a wall in your house.Maybe you’ve got some speakers or something like that, and it’s always like, “How do I hide these stupid cables?” You know what I mean? But what if it was just a sash that looked kind of attractive and it was used as part of decoration, but it happened to also be conductive and-
Topher:
Absolutely.
Michael:
Do you know what I mean? Carry the signal to your speaker or whatever. Just, you know, it’s like, that would be pretty sweet instead of having to hide it. It’s almost a feature of the device itself.
Topher:
Yeah. I mean, just sitting here thinking. Think of curtains. If I had wires routed into the curtains, now maybe I just clamp on my LED lights wherever I want light on the curtain. And now suddenly I can control where those lights are, which ones are on how bright the room becomes. And that just allows the curtain itself to be this massive carrier of different wires that now I don’t have to worry about, ’cause I just clamp things to.
Or again, carpet is another fun one too. What if I ran all of my wires into the carpet and then I could just tap off of those here and there, wherever I need some connections. So using the textile as a way to route wires is a whole nother side of smart textiles and e-textiles allowing you to get cable management, allowing you to put high density connections, going all the way through an entire room and making it so it’s visual too. There’s an aspect of textiles that has to be visual as well. There’s people expect a level of aesthetic to a textile. And so from that, you can work in with some of these other printing technologies or traditional embroider designs or doing other types of visual motifs in there and have those have interactive elements inside of them provided by the electronics or routed by the electronics. So it takes a little bit more of a visual, a visual change of the space as well, which I think is quite nice from an architectural standpoint.
Michael:
Yeah, this is, it’s just absolutely amazing. Yeah. My brain has not gone here at all with etextiles.
Topher:
The sky is the limit.
Michael:
I know, you really blow my mind on this stuff. This has been fascinating. So I want to go back to the power thing for a second.
Topher:
Yeah, absolutely.
Michael:
When you’re talking about power running through these conductive threads, is it similar to just running power through a copper wire? Is there resistance things to think about? How do you think through that kind of thing? Or what are some things that somebody might not be thinking about when you start talking about using conductive threads? Because there’s no shielding around it, for example, right?
Topher:
Exactly.
Michael:
It’s just exposed.
Topher:
Yeah. No, that’s great. From a shielding perspective, that’s the freshest on my mind, the one thing that we’ve of developed and we used standard now is we run the conductive threads down on the machine or to be able to stitch them to create the connections, but then we’ll go over top of them with a zigzag of something non-conductive, a polyester or something with a dielectric constant. And that allows them to be kind of shielded from at least abrasion or being able to fold in eTextiles fold. They bend up. You can put them away in a tiny little box, but because of that, they can short each other. So you have to be able to be careful to make sure that you have some kind of plastic or some kind of insulative layer over top of whatever you’re running considerations.
Yeah, there’s a lot, actually. It’s the same and it’s different. Conductive threads have a higher resistance than copper wires. And so because of that, generally, you’re going to get more heat. You’re going to get shorter distances for signal talk. If you’re doing something like an I2C box, if you’re doing something like SBI, generally, you’re going to want to keep your conductive thread pieces a little bit shorter so that you have a little bit more of a conductive surface between the two.
You can change conductivity with conductive threads though, by going more passes back and forth, ’cause you start making parallel circuits. And that’s one of the cool tricks that you can even add, even if you have a very resistant thread going down. Well, if I put 50 threads back and forth over top of each other, it’s going to be pretty conductive at that point. So we can start changing the structure of the textile to change the electrical properties and what comes out of it.
Michael:
That’s pretty cool. Yeah. I have used conductive thread. In fact I do have some conductive thread. I’ve played around with it. I was working with some young kids and one of the kids like stitched up a Superman shirt or like he made that Superman emblem. I think it’s, I don’t know what, if it’s like a plastic base piece of material with holes in it? For I don’t know what it’s used. I think it’s for some type of embroidery type thing or [inaudible 00:25:30] where you put the needle through and then it just makes it easier to stitch.
Topher:
That’s exactly. That’s an inverter. It’s a hand embroidery piece.
Michael:
Right. Yeah. So he had one of those and then he used it on the inside of a shirt, made a Superman symbol out of like those SOBA LEDs. He put it all behind and, ’cause they make Arduinos that are washable. You know what I mean?
Topher:
Yes.
Michael:
And it looked really pretty sweet. You know, he was pretty happy about that. Made it flash and stuff all the way around. It was pretty sweet.
Topher:
No, I think from even just … to flip it a little bit too, from an educational standpoint, which is something you touched on there, I think this is a fantastic way to teach electronics because it is very tactile. It’s very hands-on and you start getting into some pretty cool and deep electronics issues pretty quickly like conductive threads, a perfect one. Why does my light get so much dimmer when I run a single thread, five feet than copper wire? And that can open up a whole bunch of teaching doors to be able to teach different things like conductivity, resistivity, inductance, capacitance the basics in a very hands-on way that people can feel and actually literally hold or wear. So I think there’s a huge amount of educational play in this.
Michael:
Yeah, absolutely. So let’s say somebody out there listening now, is like, “Okay, Hey, this e-textile stuff sounds pretty sweet.”
Topher:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Michael:
Where would you point somebody if they wanted to start playing around in this space? Any thoughts?
Topher:
Yeah, no, I think that the first way to start out is always by hand, ’cause that’s where you’re going to learn the most. That’s where you’re going to get the most piece done. You’re going to have something that you can look at. You can start asking the right questions.
And I mean there’s boards. Adafruit has a whole bunch of boards that are designed for smart textiles. I love them. They’re great. We use them all the time. There’s CircuitPlayground Express is one of the ones I really like. It’s a great board, just a stitch into. Conductive threads. There’s a bunch of different suppliers out there from that perspective. I’ve used a AMANN is a good one. They have a really nice conductive thread. There’s some stainless steel threads. There’s a lot of different types, but you start simple. So start with something exactly like you said, with maybe a battery pack, some thread and some LEDs, and try to see if you can get the resistance on the thread correctly, that you see the LEDs, but you don’t overburn them.
And I think once you get that first demo hand done, you start getting into the deepers of, “Okay, if I can get an led and now I understand this, can I have that LED hooked up to a circuit board?” And then you start asking, “Well, if I have a circuit board, can this be a stretch sensor?” Cause if I start stretching conductive thread, sometimes depending on the structure you use that can have different conductive properties, it could be more resistant or more conductive depending on the construction. And now you have a stretch sensor there, made entirely out of the textile. And so once you have that, I think that opens up all the other doors to start looking at these hand models. And then once you get to the hand models, you get to a point where you’re like, “Wow, I really like this sock I made that could detect how much I’m flexing my foot. How do I actually make this in scale?”
And then you go out there and there’s people that know the next step of how to scale that smart textile, how to make that in scale so that you can build a business around it. Or you can start to make companies around that or donate them or all kinds of things in that regard. So I think the first one is you need a prototype in your hands of what are you trying to do? What is important to you? What is the minimum signal input that you need? And what is the minimum signal output that you give? And once you get that, you start going all over the place with different possibilities.
Michael:
Oh man. That’s awesome. I think that is a great place to stop because that’s sweet. That gets me excited and I’m trying to like think of stuff right now. So, all right. So Topher, you work with ZSK Embroidery?
Topher:
Absolutely.
Michael:
And how can somebody, if they want to reach out to you, where can they find you?
Topher:
Best way, email, super short email letter t@zsk.com.
Michael:
Wow. You lucked out on that one.
Topher:
That’s the easiest one. [crosstalk 00:29:24]. It’s great.
Michael:
Fantastic. All right. Hey, thank you so much for your time, Topher. I really appreciate it.
Topher:
Thanks a lot, Mike. It was a pleasure.
Michael:
Yes, it was fun.
